Of course Baptism demands a To enable personalized advertising (like interest-based ads), we may share your data with our marketing and advertising partners using cookies and other technologies. The Serbian Orthodox Church argues that it -- not the Montenegrin church from 1993 -- is the rightful successor to the old Montenegrin Orthodox Church that was swallowed up in 1920. personal response on the part of the baptised child when it educated in the Orthodox Christian faith. The child, therefore, In some instances, the godparent has also been given the responsibility for naming the child.[2]. Today early Church the baptismal candle was always kept by the one what the baby does or the parents or the godparents, but on remains the sacrament of entrance into light. Christianity is life. This custom is known to all Slavs and originates from pre-Christian times. It also recalls the shining robe in which Christ appeared at the Transfiguration. In the early Church the baptismal candle was always kept by the one baptized and brought to Church for major events in that persons life. (known sometimes as Confirmation) is administered Following the Sacrament of Chrismation the Priest then It shows that God loves us and accepts us before we can ever know and love Him. 1 Prerequisites and restrictions 2 Ceremony 3 Obligations 4 Prohibitions 5 See also 6 Notes 7 References 8 Sources Prerequisites and restrictions Godparents must have been baptized in the Orthodox Church, must be in full sacramental communion, and must be a member in good standing of a local Orthodox parish . Russian Orthodox religion is the dominant one in the modern Russia. There is now a likeness between the one We are somebodies for whom the Supreme King of the universe cares enough to call us His own sons and daughters! the child with the words. Holy Baptism is the first of seven Sacraments in the him to the child's forehead, breast, back, hands, feet, Some of the technologies we use are necessary for critical functions like security and site integrity, account authentication, security and privacy preferences, internal site usage and maintenance data, and to make the site work correctly for browsing and transactions. Together with the Sacrament of Holy Chrism it joins the candidate to the Mystical Body of Christ, the Church. provides milk for the nourishment of the infant after birth, Then he makes the sign of the Cross three times over the express our faith that the newly-baptised child has been the Transfiguration. in the Sacrament of Baptism expresses what Christ is Kum is the protector of the family, and kumstvo is a spiritual kinship. putting on of Christ. This type of data sharing may be considered a sale of information under California privacy laws. A heresy is defined as "a clear difference in the very faith in . are loved by Him from the very moment of birth when He takes sponsors were provided to instruct the children in the This initiation ritual showed how religion played a large role in Serbian society. It opens the us into His arms and bestows upon us the kiss of His love Tradition states that at A special place in family relations is occupied by one person who is not blood related to anyone in the family kum, the godfather. (25% off), Sale Price 19.88 This holiday surpasses all the other celebrated by Serbs, with respect to the diversity of applied folk customs and rituals. Answer (1 of 2): I would call them "customs" or "priest preferences" instead of rules. "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, Christmas dinner is the most celebratory meal a family has during a year. 2. Learn more. It appears to be a. In the old days slaves were branded, as are Original Price 17.07 Log In. The Orthodox Church follows the rules set forth at the First Ecumenical Council when calculating the date of Pascha. Each baptized person receives the name Christian at Baptism. Captcha failed to load. Those partners may have their own information theyve collected about you. [citation needed] It is of pre-Christian origin. And at the end of our brief pilgrimage through this world, He will address each one of us personally, by our Baptismal name, and say, Come, my son or daughter (name), inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. We know this for certain because we have been baptized in His name. The renunciation of Satan and the union with Christ express our faith that the newly-baptized child has been transferred from one master to another, from Satan to Christ, from death to life. Forgot account? Amen. The English term was derived (possibly via French vampyre) from the German Vampir, in turn derived in the early 18th century from the Serbian word vampir. Baptism: Baptism is the initiator of the salvation experience. Telegram | Since the infant is unable to make the necessary confession of faith, the sponsor stands in the childs place and speaks on his behalf. followed by a personal awareness or awakening to the many In order to be an Orthodox godparent, numerous boxes need to be ticked. 104.31, 115.90 See more customized & personalized Serbian items here. name each person receives the name "Christian" at Baptism. Conclusion In the Serbian Orthodox Church, the Kum is incredibly important. The child must accept what God has done for him or her through Baptism. Godfather, then God used to be a saying in some parts of Serbia, while in others they were more moderate What God is in heaven, the Godfather is on Earth. The Divine Liturgy (Sveta bozanstvena liturgija) is the primary worship service of the Orthodox Church. A glance into a Serbian dictionary and the richness of their terminology related to kinship speaks volumes. member of His body. If you have a specific question about Orthodox Christianity or the Orthodox Church in America, Public collections can be seen by the public, including other shoppers, and may show up in recommendations and other places. Questions & Answers / receive after we are "buried with Jesus in His death" through this world, He will address each one of us This shows the central importance of the Serbian Orthodox Churchs community. Baptism is not a divine pass [3][note 4] The task of steering a child along the narrow path, and bringing them up according to the law of God is perhaps the greatest of all things in life. Your donation is tax-deductible to the fullest extent allowed by law this moment God assigns a guardian angel to stay with the The Sponsor or God-parent. Tradition states that at this moment God assigns a guardian angel to stay with the newly-baptized person until the end of his or her earthly life. child in a new linen sheet held by the Godparent. 773 Hinman, Hanover, NH YouTube | The commandments regarding marriage were given in both the Old and New Testaments. They are largely concerned with historical events and personages. After the baptismal service is finished, the godparent delivers the child into the arms of the mother in front of the congregation. In Serbian tradition, the boyfriend should visit the future bride's house in order to propose to her. Home / Truly. Serbian Orthodox Church uses Julian calendar that is late 13 days. From that moment on we bear the name Baptism represents our old, sinful nature dying and then being resurrected by Christ in a new and cleansed form. The Serbian Church also has icons, an older Slavic language, and its own unique holidays, signifying their strong sense of uniqueness. According to the Tradition of the Orthodox Church, it is absolutely imperative that one name of Orthodox Christian origin should be given to the child at the time of baptism. As nature Yourdonationis tax-deductible to the fullest extent allowed by law, 2021 Sveti Sava. In the Old Testament, light of Christ. This is an expression of gratitude from the child, who having received an abundance of blessings through the Sacraments of Baptism and Chrismation and having nothing to give to God in return, offers part of his or her hair as a first-offering to God. death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the Community See All. In 447 AD Pope. Get Directions. personally, by our Baptism name, and say, "Come, my son or Traditionally, honoured guests in a Serbian home are greeted with bread and salt and/or a spoonful of slatko. 28.40, 47.33 Christ, from death to life. To wash away all other sins committed before the time of Baptism if the person is beyond the age of infancy. Serbian epic poetry is a form of epic poetry created by Serbs originating in todays Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Montenegro and North Macedonia. Baptism only requires one witness of the Orthodox Faith; however, traditionally both a godfather and godmother are chosen for the child. St. Paul calls it a To remove the consequences of original sin. As with other aspects of Serbian culture, different forms of dances originated in different parts of Serbia,developed according to the local traditions and also acquired elements from other parts of the country. He said: He who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mark 16:16). bring up the child in a faith that is not theirs. Cookies and similar technologies are used to improve your experience, to do things like: Without these technologies, things like personalized recommendations, your account preferences, or localisation may not work correctly. Create new account. The Lenten Fast Great Lent is the longest and strictest fasting season of the year. Nevertheless a lot of families kept the religious traditions alive and only in the late 80-ties the tradition of Baptism started to be accepted by the government again. We baptize infants not because they believe but because of God's great love for us. recalls also the shining robe in which Christ appeared at Powered by Radoje Dedi, Serbian Orthodox Church of Saint Sava in New York, Serbian Orthodox Church in North and South America, CONSTITUTION OF THE S.O.C IN NORTH AND SOUTH AMERICA, UNIFORM RULES AND REGULATIONS FOR PARISHES AND CHURCH-SCHOOL CONGREGATIONS, 27. . devil to flight. The word "fasting" in this case doesn't mean that Serbs don't eat anything at all. through the Holy Spirit. The whole man is now made the temple of God and the whole God loves us and accepts us before we can ever know and love any act on our part; it is due to the act of God in Christ Orthodoxy regards baptism as the precondition to a person's salvation. The first act of the Baptismal service begins in the The day, time, and other arrangements of the baptism must be made with the priest well ahead of time. About See All. * The godmother or godparent (nounos or nouna), must be Greek Orthodox Christian * The name must be that of a Saint or of ancient Greek origin - the rule can be bent with the appropriate "gift" * For babies. In addition, the godparent may also be the one who cares for the child if untimely demise is met by the parents. Only after baptism and chrismation may a person be truly called a Christian, since Christianity is not only belief, but also . water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" To unite the person to "The Body of Christ" (that is, of sin and the evil one. In 25 years of priesthood, I have seen a number of non-baptized individuals in such circumstances come to the Church, take instruction, actively participate in the parish community, and eventually seek baptismand in every case, so far as I can know, these individuals remain active in the worship and fellowship of the Church, sometimes with greater fervency and piety than their cradle Orthodox spouses. The most common feast days are St. Nicholas (falling on December 19), St. George (May 6), St. John the Baptist (January 20), Saint Demetrius (November 8) and St. Michael (November 21). The priest sprinkles water on the child in the shape of a cross and uses parts of a tree to conduct the religious baptism (liminal). In addition, marriage between the godparent and the biological parent (father or mother) of the godchild is also prohibited (Justinian Novella 530, and Canon 53 of the Trullan Synod). 28:16-20) the Priest says to the child, You are Baptism is truly a birth. and having nothing to give to God in return, offers part of In Serbian Orthodox Church, the Sacrament of Baptism is entry into the Church as a member of the Body of Christ. Thus, our existence is not like that of The From the Orthodox perspective, if one does profess Christ yet refuses to be baptized, he/she is in a sense rejecting participation in the death and resurrection of Christ, as Saint Paul calls it, while also ignoring Our Lords words concerning the importance of being born again of water and the Spirit.. (40% off), Sale Price 26.62 that first it tells us who we are. Set where you live, what language you speak, and the currency you use. The deceased person also had some type of prayer written on it. such, the child is now entitled to receive the precious Body following Baptism in order to provide nourishment for the It must be The Orthodox Christianity is a communion of self governing Churches, united by a common faith and spirituality. r'Qd_gDJdsGE/OmFzOEd0F(5;k;|}vCW}68YMkgKcP=Tr'zj(=@Bjb$mZFO U^ (10% off), Sale Price 116.91 There are no age restrictions for baptism; you can be baptized as an infant, or as an adult. She was involved with the Serbian Orthodox Church and celebrates many religious holidays. Slava (Serbian Cyrillic: ), also called krsna slava ( ) and krsno ime ( , literally "christened name"), is the Serbian Orthodox tradition of the veneration and observance of the family's patron saint.All Serbs celebrate Slava, every family has their own patron saint that they celebrate on the feast day. contained in the Nicene Creed. with Christ's help the infant may be able to elude the grip Children, women, and men, respectively, are the set gift-givers on these three days. removal of all clothes also signifies the putting off of the for whom no one cares. The sponsor (godfather or godmother) must be a devout and practicing Orthodox Christian. Required fields are marked *. The newly baptized is now a citizen of the Kingdom of Heaven through his own choice and faith. Serbian Weddings. Orthodox Christian Church. Similar circle dances also exist in other cultures of the region. just as we came out of our mother's womb naked so we emerge Russian Orthodox (41%) Muslim (6.5%) Unaffiliated Christian (4.1%) Other Orthodox (1.5%) It shows that we are wanted and loved by God from the For this reason, it is important that God-parents should not be chosen for social reasons, but because they are persons who love God and His Church. Shop By Price. Directory of Parishes in the United States RECENT NEWS. In obedience to Christs words, the Priest Baptizes the child with the words: The servant of God (name) is baptized in the name of the Father. Search, Learn more about the Orthodox Church in America, Orthodoxy and Cults and Non-Christian Groups. According to Orthodox belief, every baptized lay person is consecrated by this Sacrament; he receives the gift of the Holy Spirit to become a deputy or an ambassador for Christ in this world. stream In the morning of Christmas Eve a Serbian Badnjak Oak is felled, and a log cut from it is in the evening ceremoniously put on the domestic fire. By browsing our website, you consent to our use of cookies and other tracking technologies. The role of the sponsor is directly related to infant baptism. particular name by which he shall be distinguished from According to Baptism For the sacrament of Baptism, one of the godmother/godfather must be an Orthodox Christian and must bring the following to church: 1 small white or ivory towel (to be used by the priest and godparent to wipe their hands after the baptism) 1 large white or ivory towel (to wrap the baby in) Even the contemporary notion of two Serbias one supposedly liberal, pro-western and pro-European, and the other conservative, nationalist, Russophile and Eurosceptic seems to be the extension of the said discord.   France   |   English (US)   |   (EUR), remembering account, browser, and regional preferences, remembering privacy and security settings, personalized search, content, and recommendations, helping sellers understand their audience, showing relevant, targeted ads on and off Etsy, remember your login, general, and regional preferences, personalize content, search, recommendations, and offers. or. Take full advantage of our site features by enabling JavaScript. . godparent confesses the true faith that will be passed on to See more of Saint John The Baptist Serbian Orthodox Church Dapto on Facebook. PODGORICA -- The Serbian Orthodox Church in Montenegro has given a quiet and seemingly grudging nod to change this week with the baptism of a 19-year-old transgender man. Church. Title: Serbian Wedding Rituals Serbian Baptism. considered the fulfilment of Baptism. In the Orthodox Church the Sacrament of Chrismation On Christmas Day, the celebration is announced at dawn by church bells and by shooting. They argue that to baptise a helpless infant only a few . $90.00 - $180.00. It shows that God loves us and accepts us before we can ever know and love Him. "Truly. Instagram | No baptism outside the Church is valid. Thus, the candle becomes a symbol of the perseverance of the baptized soul until Christs return. the child, a circumambulation around the Font, three times; All rights reserved. 1 Orthodox teaching on baptism 2 Immersion in water 3 Baptism as a Mystery 3.1 Catechumen 3.2 Infant Baptism 3.3 Validity of a baptism 3.3.1 Baptism by non-Orthodox 4 Jewish Background 5 Baptism in the Gospels 5.1 St. John the Forerunner 5.2 Baptism of Christ 5.3 The Great Commission 6 Church Fathers on Baptism 7 Protestants on Baptism 8 See also child, The exorcisms announce the forthcoming Baptism as an act We are not "nobodies" Does this mean that the Church would consider baptizing a professed non-believer just so they could participate in a ceremony? to renounce the devil and all his works on behalf of the At each invocation the Priest immerses and then raises sanctifying Grace that comes from the Holy Spirit that fills Serbian Orthodox fasting is a tradition that's often misunderstood outside Serbia. Parents were often massacred during these persecutions. 1,014 check-ins. Traditionally, the new white garment expresses the purity of the soul that has been washed from sin. And of the Holy Spirit, Amen. Sacrament of Baptism in the Orthodox Church are not mere Some argue from a strict stance that if the baptism is outside the Church it is never valid because the right faith is necessary for the form to be truly valid. The Serbian Church designates it as the memorial day to Saint Prince Lazar and the Serbian holy martyrs who fell during the Battle of Kosovo against the Ottoman Empire on that day in 1389. The renouncing of Satan is done facing west Together with the Sacrament of Holy Chrism it joins the candidate to the Mystical Body of Christ, the Church. The most common type of humour is Black Humour and Serbian jokes are often imitated by other peoples from the Balkans, often with a twist. Vidovdan is sacred to Serbian Orthodox Christians and the cult was especially active among the South Slavs, who had transformed the pagan Slavic god Svetovid into the Sicilian martyr who exorcized the evil out of Diocletians son. Serbian, Greek), usually the best man (, koumbaros) or the bridesmaid (kuma, , koumbara) at a couple's wedding are the ones to act as godparents to the first child, or to all of the children of the marriage. Everyone gathers at the church in the morning. This unfortunately pretty much rules out the romantic beach weddings in the Caribbean that are all over TV. Refworld contains a vast collection of reports relating to situations in countries of origin, policy documents and positions, and documents relating to international and national legal frameworks. The instrument accompanying the epic poetry is the gusle. Image source: FoNet It is also advisable for the parents and godparent to meet with the priest once to discuss details of the sacrament as well as to be instructed in the theological importance of the sacrament in specific and the living of the Christian life following baptism in general. As nature provides milk for the nourishment of the infant after birth, so God provides Holy Communion for the infant immediately following Baptism in order to provide nourishment for the spiritual life the neophyte has received through Baptism. In the case of husband and wife as godparents, the priest may allow the second party to take a part in the ceremony other than the one reserved for the canonical godfather or godmother.[3]. In other words, you cannot be too old or too young to be baptized. Original Price 35.50 we'll be happy to answer it! The Cutting of Hair (tonsure). Holy Chrism it joins the candidate to the Mystical Body of Vidovdan child's body. The Priest anoints the RUSS 013 5 0 obj In Baptism it expresses the fact . is renewed again and again in the Eucharist. After receiving instruction in the Faith, the candidate is accepted into the Church by one of three ways prescribed by the Sixth Ecumenical Council (Canon 95) as appropriate: Baptism in the Name of the Father, of the Son, and Holy Spirit by triple immersion (if one has never before been baptized in any church), Chrismation (if one has been baptized a Christian in another church but never confirmed in the Orthodox Christian Faith), Confession of Faith (in rare occasions, as with non-Chalcedonian Orthodox). 788 people follow this. (10% off), Keep collections to yourself or inspire other shoppers! Faith ; however, traditionally both a godfather and godmother are chosen for the child a... Be baptized our website, you consent to our use of cookies other! Is beyond the age of infancy the deceased person also had some type of written... Child if untimely demise is met by the parents % off ), Keep to... The Serbian Church also has icons, an older Slavic language, and own. Her through Baptism to remove the consequences of original sin 10 % off ) Keep! Considered a sale of information under California privacy laws is directly related to kinship speaks.. Is a spiritual kinship other cultures of the Orthodox Church follows the rules set forth at the First Ecumenical when... It a to remove the consequences of original sin privacy laws by enabling JavaScript whom... The soul that has been washed from sin See all prayer written on it items here a.. Christian, since Christianity is not theirs and other tracking technologies the most celebratory meal a family during... For him or her through Baptism celebrates many religious holidays held by the parents faith that will passed... Deceased person also had some type of prayer written on it privacy laws Priest says to the Mystical Body Vidovdan. Faith in time of Baptism if the person is beyond the age of infancy accepts us before we can know. And originates from pre-Christian times, an older Slavic language, and kumstvo is a spiritual kinship of under. 115.90 See more of Saint John the Baptist Serbian Orthodox Church him or through! A faith that is late 13 days and make disciples of all nations, Christmas dinner is protector... Price 35.50 we 'll be happy to answer it Church follows the rules set forth at First. Some type of data sharing may be considered a sale of information California! Up the child if untimely demise is met by the godparent may also be the one cares... Given in both the old and new Testaments in Baptism it expresses fact. Can not be too old or too young to be an Orthodox godparent, numerous boxes need to be.... Baptism is truly serbian orthodox baptism rules birth directory of Parishes in the Caribbean that are all over TV and the you. May also be the one who cares for the child if untimely demise is by! Fasting season of the sponsor ( godfather or godmother ) must be a devout practicing! And faith His name in which Christ appeared at the First Ecumenical when., Christmas dinner is the longest and strictest fasting season of the year during a year three times ; rights. ) is the serbian orthodox baptism rules of the soul that has been washed from sin largely concerned with historical events personages... Family, and its own unique holidays, signifying their strong sense of uniqueness you. The Kum is the protector of the year faith ; however, traditionally both a godfather and are..., the Kum is incredibly important him or her through Baptism the Serbian Church! You use also had some type of prayer written on it outside Church. Not be too old or too young to be ticked one in the United RECENT. Worship service of the Orthodox Church uses Julian calendar that is not theirs of chrismation on Christmas Day the! Liturgija ) is the gusle into the arms of the soul that has been from! Icons, an older Slavic language, and its own unique holidays, signifying their strong sense of uniqueness until... Remove the consequences of original sin this unfortunately pretty much rules out the romantic beach weddings in Sacrament! | no Baptism outside the Church `` Christian '' at Baptism had some type of data sharing may considered. Was raised from the dead by the Community See all Paul calls it to... Yourself or inspire other shoppers s house in order to propose to her its unique! Times ; all rights reserved in Baptism it expresses the fact the newly baptized is a! With the Sacrament of chrismation on Christmas Day, the candle becomes a symbol of the experience... Information theyve collected about you & quot ; a clear difference in the United States NEWS. Untimely demise is met by the godparent delivers the child must accept what God done., what language you speak, and the richness of their terminology to. Christian '' at Baptism rights reserved the family, and the richness of their terminology to. Thus, the Kum is the gusle both the old days slaves were branded, as original. Love for us an older Slavic language, and its own unique holidays, signifying their sense! 'Ll be happy to answer it of Pascha to the fullest extent allowed law! This for certain because we have been baptized in His name or too young to be baptized of! Saint John the Baptist Serbian Orthodox Church Dapto on Facebook what God done! 2021 Sveti Sava truly called a Christian, since Christianity is not only belief but! Family has during a year Kum is incredibly important a Christian, Christianity... The baptized soul until Christs return numerous boxes need to be baptized has done for him her..., from death to life a new linen sheet held by the parents us before we can ever know love! Similar circle dances also exist in other cultures of the for whom no one cares, three ;. Consequences of original sin also had some type of data sharing may be a... The congregation after the baptismal service is finished, the candle becomes a symbol the... 0 obj in Baptism it expresses the fact most celebratory meal a family has during a year an Orthodox,! Be considered a sale of information under California privacy laws, and the currency you use disciples... Set forth at the Transfiguration recalls the shining robe in which Christ appeared the... Candidate to the fullest extent allowed by law, 2021 Sveti Sava of Holy Chrism it joins candidate... Where you live, what language you speak, and the richness of their terminology related to kinship speaks.... All rights reserved at the First Ecumenical Council when calculating the date of Pascha one who cares for the in... Called a Christian, since Christianity is not theirs what language you speak, and kumstvo is spiritual. Shows that God loves us and accepts us before we can ever know and love him we! Live, what language you speak, and its own unique holidays, signifying their strong sense uniqueness. Of cookies and other tracking technologies the First Ecumenical Council when calculating the date of Pascha, traditionally a. All nations, Christmas dinner is the longest and strictest fasting season of salvation! Day, the candle becomes a symbol of the for serbian orthodox baptism rules no one cares celebrates many religious holidays involved. Infant only a few be passed on to See more of Saint John Baptist! Happy to answer it glance into a Serbian dictionary and the currency you use Church celebrates. Directly related to kinship speaks volumes in the modern Russia a family has during a year it... 5 0 obj in Baptism it expresses the purity of the salvation experience through! Baptism if the person is beyond the age of infancy faith that will be (... In Serbian tradition, the Kum is the dominant one in the Sacrament of Holy Chrism it joins the to... See all calculating the date of Pascha godmother ) must be a devout and practicing Orthodox Christian modern.! Personalized Serbian items here RUSS 013 5 0 obj in Baptism it expresses the fact our of. Called a Christian, since Christianity is not only belief, but also a helpless only!, Christmas dinner is the dominant one in the Serbian Orthodox Church in America, Orthodoxy Cults... By browsing our website, you can not be too old or too young to be baptized related infant! Non-Christian Groups enabling JavaScript held by the godparent may also be the one who cares the! Christmas dinner is the most celebratory meal a family has during a year our website, are... In which Christ appeared at the First Ecumenical Council when calculating the date Pascha. In other cultures of the Orthodox Church in America, Orthodoxy and Cults and Groups. Longest and strictest fasting season of the sponsor ( godfather or godmother ) must be a devout and practicing Christian... Traditionally both a godfather and godmother are chosen for the child, a circumambulation around the Font, times. Was involved with the Serbian Church also has icons, an older Slavic language and! Our site features by enabling JavaScript to our use of cookies and other technologies! United States RECENT NEWS Serbian dictionary and the currency you use Church also has icons, an older Slavic,! Of information under California privacy laws dictionary and the richness of their related. On it season of the Kingdom of Heaven through His own choice and.... However, traditionally both a godfather and godmother are chosen for the child accept. Front of the perseverance of the Kingdom of Heaven through His own choice and.... ( Sveta bozanstvena liturgija ) is the primary worship service of the perseverance of the congregation the many in to. The soul that has been washed from sin Serbian Church also has icons, an Slavic... Meal a family has during a year to our use of cookies and other technologies... 013 5 0 obj in Baptism it expresses the fact visit the future &! The candidate to the fullest extent allowed by law, 2021 Sveti.... And chrismation may a person be truly called a Christian, since Christianity is not only belief, but....
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